The Leader Fast Lane, Episode 7 - with Angelo State University President Ronnie Hawkins, Jr.

In this episode, I am joined by Angelo State University President Ronnie Hawkins, Jr. President Hawkins, who retired from the Air Force as a Lt. General, shares his leadership journey, why he values mentorship, how leadership in higher education differs from leadership in the military, the centrality of character in a leader, how to have difficult conversations, balancing tradition with advancement, and the need to maintain perspective through reading and prayer.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Hello, and welcome to the Leader Fast, the podcast where I talk with accomplished leaders from higher education, public service, and beyond to share real stories, practical principles, and hard-earned lessons listeners can apply immediately. No buzzwords, no shortcuts, just real leaders sharing real lessons you can apply right away. I'm Lane Mears, Assistant Vice Chancellor for Leader in Culture Development at the Texas Tech University System. Today I am joined by Lieutenant General retired Ronnie Hawkins Jr., President E20. Angelo Steve is a 1977 ASU distinguished graduate and a retired Air Force Lieutenant General. President Hawkins is an internationally respected subject matter expert in leadership, strategic planning, cybersecurity, military matters, and Christian discipleship development with over four decades of business, military, academic, and spiritual development experience. It's great to have you on the podcast, President Hawkins.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Thank you, Lane. It's a pleasure and an honor to be here. I I kind of sort of chuckled at that accomplished leadership stuff, but we'll see how that all goes.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

I'm sure we'll it will have a rich discussion. Before we dive into our leader discussions, can you share a little with our listeners about what the role of a university president entails?

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah, I would, I would, I would describe it as being the CEO of an institution that is in the business of developing people to come out of the university with the credentials, uh, experience, and understanding, as well as education in a variety of different fields. We have well over 11,000 plus students that are enrolled at Angelo State University, over a thousand plus faculty and staff. Uh, and and we've just got a an incredible amount of people trying to make sure, as we share with students and their parents, uh, we want to help them change family trees. So that's what I would say in a in the English format of what I, as the president slash CEO of the uh Angelo State University is all about.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Excellent. Thank you. Can you talk a little bit about your background and leadership journey?

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Yeah, I can I can do that. You know, I could, I don't know, I'm gonna date myself. Uh it could be sort of like the Mary Tyler Moore Ted Knight. It all started at a 5,000 watt radio station. Um, but the truth be told, it it goes back to my time of having uh watch my father and and my grandfather, who's a Buffalo soldier, my father, retired uh Chief Master Sergeant of the military, watch them uh develop as leaders. And and it's just grown from there. I've been around a lot of great leaders, uh, to include my coaches and teachers, and and finally end up in the United States Air Force and um just a bevy of leaders there, from General Petraeus to um Colin Powell, and all of those types of individuals. I've been able to touch the, if I can say it, press the flesh with them and watch them as leaders develop. So I would I would say it started with athletics really in that uh sphere of influence and has grown all the way through my time in the military and then out of the military, watching some great and and meeting some great CEOs that uh I really do appreciate David Stewart, who's the CEO of a company uh out of St. Louis. Um it's just incredible to watch those people uh and how they lead and what it is that they do. Uh so that would be my leadership side of that. And then uh went into the military as a second lieutenant and told my wife Maria that we were only going to stay for four years and pay off my ROTC um time uh and scholarship that I had uh and ended up staying 37 years because um as as I matriculated through the ranks uh in in the Air Force from lieutenant all the way to lieutenant general, um, each one of those, I think past major, really, I didn't even think I was going to make them. I never even thought about all those things until I had some incredible mentors in my in my life and are still in my life today, um, uh such as what I just told you, David Stewart with worldwide technologies. Uh, those are individuals that that come to mind that have been impressed, impressive to me and pressed upon me the the leadership style that I have right now.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Thank you very much. I know uh expect that you know from your background in in athletics and then in the military and then in university leadership, but also in in Christian ministry and church leadership, that you've got uh you can draw on lots of different experiences and examples in your everyday duties that I hope we can dig into a little bit. Okay. One thing that you you've mentioned about the mentors that have have guided you and helped you develop um is something that I admire about you're very you're clearly very interested in you value mentorship and the way that you've deployed that at Angelo State, requiring your senior leaders to mentor others, investing every semester in in the mentorship programs of the university uh is admirable. And I think it um hopefully everybody that goes through those is replicating those relationships and um things that they're learning with others uh based on on your example.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah, I would say so. Uh and and I know we want that everybody would would continue in that, but uh to the point there are mentors and mentees that choose to not continue to pursue either one of those positions for whatever the reason might be. And to a certain degree, I'm okay with that too, because they realize, hey, this isn't my quote unquote cup of tea. But for the most part, uh, you know, I just ran into a young mentee. He's not young, he's old now, um, but he was a young mentee when he was at the Air Force Academy. His name is Chris Howard. He graduated from the Air Force Academy and and got a road scholar, and he's now the COO of Arizona State University, the other ASU. Uh, and then there he's doing quite well in in that. And I was a major at the time that I was mentoring him. And here he is now, the CEO of a an incredible university. Uh, and and it was just a pleasure to come back literally 40 years later and pick up like we hadn't ever been apart. And that's what mentorship is all about when it is long term. Uh, you just never break away from those bent T's and they from you. And particularly, they will usually come around when they're in a tight spot, not necessarily a bad troubled spot, but a tight one. And they say, Hey, I remember when. And you know, then they call and they can call you in the middle of the night and you are busy, and they say, Hey, do you have a few moments? And you always have that few moments. And a few moments end up to hours and days and weeks and months later, but it's all good. So I'm I'm about mentorship and about putting in that type of time uh to other people.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

If if you wouldn't mind, I'm one follow-up question. Um I have talked with people throughout my experience, my professional experience about mentorship, and and often the response is I can't mentor anybody. What do I have to offer a mentee? And my response has often been, well, you've got experience. You've been through uh you know difficult times, you've led through uh con you know, conflict or uh you know in achieving goals. But um what would you say to those people who tend to doubt their ability to add value as a mentor?

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Well, that that that what you you what you mentioned there is typically the the the low spot in in an understanding of mentoring that you have to have uh achieve great things. And uh the truth be told, it's not about what you've achieved, it's the experiences that you're willing to share, both good and bad. Uh, we've all seen bad leaders, we've all seen good leaders, we've all many of us have seen great leaders. Um, and and if not even seen them, as I shared that phrase, press the flesh with them. We've read about them, we understand and know about them. And and when you when you get a good spiel uh spectrum of that that understanding and experience, it's not for you to just keep to yourself, is my belief. And so it's it's not about being great, it's not about being rich with money or wealth or excuse me, wealth or knowledge. It's about being able to share your experiences. And uh, I'm just of a belief that God puts people in your path to do those type things. Some of the times we don't realize it for three to five years until you look back on it and see that's what that was all about. So um it and some of the times you don't realize it until there a generation of children come along and start talking to you about what mom and dad said about you or them. Uh and it's okay, that's what it was about. So uh, you know, there are there are great formats for mentoring, um, and there are great books on mentorship. Uh, and you you you gotta look into many of them, not just hang on to one from John Maxwell to to someone else. Um, they they've got a good idea, but uh my my thought is you gotta become you gotta be yourself and you gotta be strong in that in that in that area right there, and then just share it with people. Um, some some of the mentors I've had, John Culver is one of them. He has since passed. Um, but I remember him uh when I didn't make a meeting time, and he was gone from his office by the time I got there. I learned to always be ahead of the time, the schedule time frame after that, because he taught me a very valuable lesson there. And by the way, the reason he was gone from the office is he was a he was a very serious diabetic and he had to eat on the clock. And and I was messing with his clock, and he wouldn't let me do that. And that was a mentoring uh point right in there.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Sure. Good. Well, thank you for that. Can you talk a little bit about principles that have guided you as a leader across your different uh fields of work?

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Oh, yeah, yeah. Uh the ones that come to mind, because I've heard I've had I've had that question a lot. Uh the first one being integrity. Uh, and I know that some is somewhat um uh washed over many times, um, but it it's it's the bedrock of of appreciating who the person is and them appreciating you as your integrity. They've got to be able to trust what you're saying uh and and believe when it's a and know when it's opinion versus uh this is Ronnie Hawkins speaking to you. I just had a group of people in my office today, and um they were scheduled to talk uh with other folks to let them know uh what I was thinking. And I said, no, they need to hear it from me uh so that they understand that this is my voice and this is my thought. And so integrity is utmost in there. Obviously, being a good communicator and communicating is not just speaking, but hearing and listening to what people are are saying uh and watching and learning from their body um movements and and their facial expressions, voice tonation, all of those things are about uh being a good listener. Uh and so uh that would be the other quality that I would put in there. And and the final one is just drive, because uh all of us get tired uh and all of us uh lose patience with people, um, including ourselves. Um, but you got to have that drive/slash determination. I know Chancellor Mitchell, uh Meritus there from Texas Tech University System called it grit. I call it drive. Uh, and and uh the two may be somewhat synonymous, but not the same, but that's my word for it.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Yep. That's I know that the um Texas Tech School of Veterinary Medic Medicine has grit as one of their five values that they identify. And that one has always struck me as like you've said, it's it's whether it's drive or or or grit or however you define it, that it's invaluable, that you know, life life can be difficult and we're gonna have challenges, we're gonna have opposition at times, whether it be physical, mental, spiritual, we're gonna have things that are gonna hinder us in pursuing our interests and our goals, and living out of that determination, that drive, that resilience or grit to power through to achieve what we want and intend to achieve. I I tell my kids that that's a greater determination of success than intelligence. I appreciate that that's one of the three that you mentioned because I think it is it is so fundamental uh in in this day and age.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Yeah, I will I would tell you also the the reason I'm I'm very cautious with using the word drive is you can get the a connotation and the notion of driving people like a herd of cattle, if you will. And that's not what I'm talking about. This is an internal um issue right in there. And more importantly, you can't drive people as you drive yourself, you know, physically and mentally. So I'm I'm I'm cautious in using that term and and grit might be the better one, I don't know, but I I select drive because it's usually that one that comes to mind um for me. And and it comes from the focus of again, football, and I think it was Vince Lombardi who said it, fatigue makes cowards of us all. And when you get tired mentally, physically, spiritually, um, and you get fatigued, you choose the wrong, you make the oftentimes you make the wrong choice. And so that's how come I use that word drive to make sure, you know, I'm just not ti, I'm I'm I'm not fatigued, I'm not tired, um, and and choose to make the wrong choice there.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Right. That's good. So we we've talked a little bit about this when we gave your, you know, you talked about some of your background, but you've led both in in the military setting, the combat operations, and in higher education. What leadership principle translated most clearly across the two areas?

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Yeah, I I again that's another one that I've heard a lot. And um, when you posed it here, it's a little bit different. Um, but it it comes back to taking care of your people. Um, and what what I mean by that is uh, you know, in in combat, um uh I was fortunate to have come back um from uh the Iraqi war. And uh and it was a it was an interesting um metamorphosis that I went through even during that time frame, only it only being one year in in that war zone and uh several years in and out of the war zone, um, and watching death and watching uh mayhem or seeing mayhem and the like, um and having to have sent people into harm's way. Uh in other words, out what we call the outside the wire. Um it's it's it's it's interesting how you look at people after that uh and during those time frames when it may not have been your decision to send somebody out the wall outside the wire, uh, but they don't come back. And then you're stuck with talking to parent NACSTA. You're then challenged to have to talk with um the parents of the deceased soldier, sailor, airman, marine, coast guardsmen, um uh whoever it might be. And we didn't have the Space Force back then, so uh you can uh uh see that uh guardians also. But uh when you take care of your people, um you know, life and death takes place even at Angelo State. Um I just received a report of a of a member whose whose uh family member um died by suicide. And you know, it's another area of taking care of your people that it's it's a very tender um period of time uh for them as well as you, and and how you deal with those things are very important, uh, just as the birth of a child is very important too. So I I I look at it as taking care of your people. Uh, just had a company in my office today that uh and I shared it with them. When when people come on this campus, they expect this place to to look a certain way. Uh, and everybody's responsible for that. So it's it's people taking care of them. From, if you will, the lowest common denominator to the highest common denominator. And then so that's how I look at it. Long answer, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

No, that it's what I what I what I appreciate about it is that it's not just words, I've seen it with you. Um, one of your one of your team members, one of your leaders uh had has had health concerns for several months, and and just seeing how you cared for that person and their family consistently and how they've felt um supported, respected, loved by by you and the university. It you're y'all are living it out, and and and I appreciate that. And I'll add also that um when we are leading or facilitating the the lead the lead like a ram sessions um for students this spring, uh my my two new colleagues that have come have commented how amazing it is, how much they appreciate that you spend so much time with the students, talking about your experience, the university, your hope for them, your accessibility is is remarkable. And that all I think ties back to what you said about taking care of your people and how much of a uh a lived value that is for you.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Well, it's something that uh again, uh I didn't dream this up myself. I watched other people doing it as well, and it really came home to roost one time. I was um in charge of all Air Force ROTC, uh officer training school, reserve officer training school, officer training school, and junior reserve officer training, excuse me. Uh, and my boss, who at the time was a four-star, and I was a measly little one-star sitting in in Montgomery, Alabama. I'm getting ready to go home one uh uh evening, and in pops this uh happy birthday email. And back then it was just email, we didn't have text or anything like that back in that day. Um, but it impressed upon me how that individual took that amount of time to send me a personal email. And from that point on, I did the same thing, but it wasn't just that. It was how do you reach out to people and stay in touch with them? And for me as a president of the university, the way I do it with students is I walk the same mall that they walk. Uh, and and I don't do it so that I'm incognito, but I wear the same clothes that they wear. I don't, you've seen me. I usually don't I don't do a coat and tie. Uh a lot of that's because I don't have time to tie ties, but more importantly, I feel more comfortable in in jeans and not necessarily a t-shirt, but a shirt that I can just hang on my shoulders and don't have to worry about whether or not it's tucked in or not. But uh we just move around the campus that way. Um and I think I've I've come to gain the the confidence from people that I'm not trying to hide around a corner or hide in plain sight. That's just who I am. So that's how we do that. And it's a part of the culture here called the Ram family. Uh and you just see that all over the place. It's not just me, it's everybody. Um they they dress for success, but they dress as they they need to. And and and we we we communicate that way, we exchange that way.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Well, it's it's very evident. I I can imagine. I did not serve in the military. I've been um spent a couple of years in an academic program around quite a few uh military folks, but never served. But I want to ask a question about about some of the differences between your role um as a leader in the military, where there's orders are followed. And then your role in university administration, where and just want to ask the distinction. What what surprised you about leading without formal rank in a university setting?

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Not much, because it's really not the rank, it's the position more than anything else. And so don't get me wrong, the rank is important. Money is great, if you will, to some extent. But it's about the position. And I've heard uh again, uh Chancellor Emeritus um Mitchell talk about this. You know, he was the chancellor. People have been vice presidents of organizations or CEOs of organizations. And because they're the CEO, not, you know, Mr. So-and-so or President so-and-so or general so-and-so, um they're treated differently because of that position. Because they can come back and they're no longer, you know, that president andor that that general officer. Um, you know, when I was the general officer at the Defense Information Systems Agency, um, I could pick up the phone or go into an office and everything stopped and came um, you know, to uh my uh my attention. I went back there as a retired lieutenant general officer, and I had to go through the front door as a visitor. I didn't go around the side door. So uh and to some extent, it's the same way here uh as the president. Uh I've been on this campus many times as an individual, not as a president. And I will say been treated differently. So it's not about that, it's about the positions more than anything and the confidence that people gain from you being in those positions. Uh, you know, uh a newly minted or a new assigned lieutenant general going into a place has to has to make sure people gain confidence in who that person is, uh, not because they're the lieutenant general, but because they're now the boss in doing those types of things. And it goes the same way here. I've just never seen a difference really. And again, it's a very long answer, might not be to what people expect to have heard, but I've I've been treated no differently. And as a matter of fact, I make sure here at ASU they don't treat me the same way that I got treated as a general officer because I got quote unquote used to that stuff when I was in the uniform. And then when I retired, Maria didn't treat me that way, and I had to get that stuff done myself. So I don't want to fall into that trap again.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Sure. Well, that's great. Um All right. I'm gonna shift a little bit into some of our um questions on on particular topics. The the topic I want to look at next is on character and values and decision making. In the military, decisions are often intensely time compressed. Um whereas as a university president, perhaps more in this day and age than in the past, there's uh they're often politically complex decisions to be made. From your perspective, which environment demanded more character?

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Wow, that's not a question that you told me you were going to ask me. So now it's all of a sudden one I've got to think about. But the truth be told, is this environment as a president is a lot different. Um, and it's it's it's not because of the orders, it's because of the oath of office that people take when they're in the military. Um, and it's an oath of office that you're going to support and defend a constitution. Uh, and I could go through it and all the other words that tie to that oath of office. But there's no oath that you take um here that I took as the president, with the exception of uh being quote unquote sworn in as the president. But you know, there's nobody else that has that that type of an oath, but everybody in the military takes an oath of and and that means something uh there. And so when when I got here, the thing that surprised me most about the character is that it it was it formed itself around this fear of what is known as academic freedom uh and then shared quote-unquote governance. And neither of those two are bad in and of themselves. But when taking from an individual perspective or an individual organization's perspective, and not from the collective whole that you have when you're looking at it from a military perspective, um, that's just been different, not difficult, but different. And so um you you just got to navigate your way through that and appreciate and understand the culture that comes from that type of um sphere of influence, I guess I would call it. So the oath is one thing, uh, the academic freedom uh and the need for that in a in a public setting, such as what we're in, in a public institution within the state of Texas or wherever that state might be, uh, whatever state that might be, excuse me, um, it's just different. And you've got to appreciate that and not take for granted, uh, like I hope I've never will have done and will do, and not take for granted that you can just go around ordering people around. For the fact of the matter is, in a 37-year career, I think I can count on one hand the number of times I gave an order to somebody. I told them people to do a lot of things, but ordering them to do it, uh that that just that's not reality in our military.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Also on the value topic, what value is hardest to live out consistently at the senior leader level?

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Yeah, I know the the value that I have and the values that we have at Angelo State University, there are five of them. Uh, and the one that I would tell you that is hardest to lead out is the one that's in the middle. And that's our value, uh, our value of of of uh significance and what it means to be significant. Uh again, that's one of those areas that it takes a lot of work and effort uh to be significant. There, there's a lot of great people. There are a lot of good people on this earth, and this isn't about one upping anybody, but being significant in that you're impactful not only for your own life, but the lives of others that are around you. Um, that's tough. Uh and it comes from a John Maxwell um maxim that that talks about success and what that means. Um, and and and as I share with parents and students that are looking to come to Angelo State University, and I do believe this, everybody's going to be successful, um, one way, shape, form, or fashion, or everybody has the opportunity to be successful. Everybody doesn't have that opportunity to be significant. And so we've got to afford and avail that uh to people here, both at the staff, the the um the academic and and then the student level, and even our alumni. And so spreading that out, I think that's the value that is tough uh to articulate and then live by on a stead in a steady fashion. But then eventually it catches its own um set of of speed and velocity and and it takes on its own shape. Uh, and and people start to I we use the phrase buy into it, but that's that's what I would tell you right there. And you know, and I may have missed it in your other question about character, uh why character is so important um when you're looking at what is what is done. Uh character is who you are, reputation is what people think you are. Uh and and there's a big difference in those. And um, you can get yourself in trouble when people have a reputation of you that doesn't line up with your character, and that's when things blow up many times.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Yep. On on the significance, it it's getting me thinking philosophically and and maybe even spiritually that I I think most of us would agree that ultimately we tend to find more significance not in our personal achievement or personal wealth or accomplishments, but how much we impact others. Um even Victor Franklin, his man's search for meaning, talked about, you know, that's what it sustains us is this sense of something there's something beyond us that is important. Um and so I like that you talked about significance being being um one of the values at Angelo State. Um and yeah, I'm not saying this generation is any different than mine. I'm a Gen Xer, but but reminding students particularly who are experiencing so much in a new environment in college with the whole world of knowledge at their fingertips, and um, to have this emphasis and reminder that significance really comes from how we impact and help other people is is great.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

I I I I think so too. And again, uh we've got we all of us have to be careful with that because then people start to judge their success by how much they think they've impacted someone and failing to realize oftentimes that they're more impactful than they really even understand and appreciate. Um, and uh again, that's one of those side notes that my grandmother um told me, don't read your press clippings, because all the time those are, and she this was way back in the time when the only thing you had was a newspaper um and a couple of magazines called Book or Look and Timed. Uh, and so when when you start looking at what people are saying about you and it's flawed at its base to begin with, that's called reputation there. And if you if you hang on to that the wrong way, um and that reputation goes sour on you in the the worst time that you could have it to go sour, uh that that's where that word significance is so you got to understand that some of the times that what you think you're less impactful about is so is that Chris Howard deal. He's talking about when I was a major and the things that I was doing at the Academy for the cadets. I mean, I've completely forgot about that stuff, uh, some 30 years later, but he's remembering it. Uh, and and you just go back and it's those wow moments that you have uh at the end of the day, week, month, or whatever, um, that that you realize, wow, I did, I did make an impact. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Well, and that just brings to mind the thought for me that leading people, whether it be with a formal title or not, is is a great responsibility. Um, if we're having a bad day, which we all do, but we respond in a way that is not how you know consistent with our character or our reputation, um, we may miss those moments where we could have, even if we forget it down the line, we could have said something or done something that had a profound, long-lasting impact on other people. And so leaders, we have a responsibility to take steps to try to bring our best selves to work every day. Take care of ourselves, be careful how we manage our emotions, um, aim for impact and and serving others as often as we can, because like you've said, we may never know the greater the great impact that we're having, but it can also be negative if we're coming to work in uh less than our best selves.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Amen to that. Amen to that. I uh, you know, I will share with you a vignette on that one as well, Lane. You know, today um uh to use the phrase, I think the front office may have thought, boy, he woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning because um I was in a mode of, you know, do this, do that, or get this done. And I want to talk to this person. Um, but it wasn't because I, you know, didn't didn't trust them. It was more I wanted the people to hear from me, my thoughts that I had, and to the point I had to step back from that and and check on the style and tonation of an email. No, no, no capitalized words or exclamation points, but even just the words alone can be misconstrued, um, both from the the typist perspective, read my perspective, as well as others. So it's that that gets back to that communication piece that I was talking about. And how much do we listen, how much do we watch people's body language and their expressions when they hear words from us that are not meant to be incendiary, but can come across that way. Um and again, one of those old expressions that I say words are like toothpaste. Once they're out of the tube, you can't pull them back. Uh, and so then you got to start working from the other side of that. Uh, this is what I really meant, or let me apologize on the front end so that we can really get down to the specifics versus uh just letting it become a cancer um uh with some people. And again, I don't even use that word lightly because of what it means to other people, but here we go with words mean things, and we've got to appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

And our words have an impact, they have an impact, yeah, significantly. Let's shift a little bit to um uh a topic on developing leaders, uh kind of in the mentorship uh vein. What do you look for early when deciding who to invest in as a future leader?

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Yeah, I you know, I that that's another one of those. Uh I've just never I've had to think about that when when you just asked me. Um I I guess it gets back to that integrity word. You know, are people honest about themselves and about others around them? Um are they procrastinators? Uh are they are they positive? Um you know, are they about tearing them other people down so to build them up? Those those are some of the the things I look for. Um when I recognize that people are aren't really aware, um situational awareness of what's going on around them, I feel a need to start to help if I can. Um by the same token. Um it's it's those who who reach out and ask. Uh, that's another another thing that I look for. You know, I go a lot, I go to a lot of sporting events and and watch what's going on on the on the court, uh, in the field, you know, on the track, and watching who is about helping the other person uh out. And one of the things I've seen, especially in sports today, overall, uh, you get you get the um, I don't forgot, uh Charles Barkley, you get the the the player that's always playing hero ball. It's always about them instead of how do I help the team out. Um, and so it's about the unselfishness or selflessness that that you got to balance there what's going on. And you can see it real, you can see it very well in athletics, you can see it in academics as well. You know, so uh it's what's that person all about? Helping others or just wanting to get at the top of the pyramid no matter what?

SPEAKER_00 38:58

Yep. What's uh in your experience, what's the most effective way you found to give tough feedback without breaking trust?

SPEAKER_01 39:08

To to talk face to face, get everybody in the room and talk face to face. Uh too often um uh we we take emails at face value, we take sending an email at face value since I've sent it, somebody's read it and understood it. Uh, they may not have even opened it up yet before we make that statement, but it's about getting everybody in the same room and hearing the same words. And then when it's all said and done, going around the room and and asking, what do you think you just heard from me? Um, and and seeing if it comes back out close to what it should be. So far off we got to stay in there another hour or so. I'm exaggerating there, but it, you know, that that's what when it comes time for tough communication, you need to be looking eyeball to eyeball with people. Of course, distance and time can prevent those two things from always happening. But then it becomes uh, what's the tone of your voice when you when you start talking to someone? Are are we both at a high pitch or what? And admittedly, I will tell you, even with speaking with parents, um, I've had to just hang up the phone versus continual convention conversation that has gotten heated at both ends of the spectrum. Uh so it I believe it's important to talk face to face uh to most people.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

I like that aspect of in the face-to-face to go around and make sure people well check in with what people are hearing from from that. Because we all bring, we all voices, not voices, we all have stories in our head that filter things that we hear. And so asking that question, what you're hearing, I think can give you the platform to make sure that there's clarity um rather than assuming it. Um I'm gonna, I'm definitely gonna use that.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Yeah, you you know, I I you know, chief of staff here, Miss Ashley Warren, she often gets an email and or a statement from me, okay, to make sure we're not talking past each other, let's all get in the same room and and get this done, versus um, yeah, he understood. No, okay, that's fine, you know, but it's more about let's just get in the room. And and making those tough, having those tough conversations, uh, some of the time they're difficult to do because we're we're we're so close and personal with each other. Um, and I think it was Cole and Powell, you know, uh, never make a decision based on emotion, um, because oftentimes that's the wrong decision. And never share share decisions like that based on emotion because it could be because you're close friends, and it's time to tell the close friend, I think it's time for you to go work someplace else. And so those those things are tough, but you got to be able to say them and you got to hear the words correctly um from the people well when they when they're saying, Well, I think I can, and it's not, it's not it, we're past I think time. Uh it's let's know for sure. Right. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

That's great. A couple more questions before we we uh proceed to closing. Um, um one on the topic of culture and institutions. You know, you've been at Angelo State or involved with Angelo State for a long time. It's a it's a university that has been a pillar in that San Angelo community for a long time. How do you honor institutional tradition without letting it become inertia?

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Yeah, that's a good one, boy. And that last word you use is very important, the inertia piece to that. Um, because there is a difference between tradition and culture. Um, and um when you when you want to make sure you maintain those traditions and those traditions that are quote unquote good and long-lasting for the institution, um, but you don't have the culture to get that done, or the inertia to get that done, uh, there it's gonna be difficult there both ways. Um, and so uh I I would tell you that the inertia comes from again evaluating and periodically evaluating what's the culture of the university there, um, and what traditions do we want to uphold, and what traditions do we want to uh uh eliminate, reduce, or or choose to just finally just not recognize anymore. And it's not just about eliminating them. It's about we that's not us. And we're not going to do that anymore. So traditions, um, traditions and can change like culture, but culture is what is an overall uh perspective of how it is we're we're gonna work as as a body uh of of individuals, whether it's whether it's believers or whether it's just workers um at a task, um that that that culture, uh the Ram Fam is a culture here. And you know, it's hard to explain that to people who haven't been here uh to see that in action in many different ways. Um and so uh while I'm dancing around that question because it's a tough one there, because there are many traditions that even now we're deciding we're not gonna do that anymore. I can tell you when we brought down the men's and women's high rise, um you know, there was a tradition that was around there that you can't do that, but we have a culture that says we got to move into the uh to the you know the next decade, and we can't have high-rises sitting empty, uh deteriorating with every day just because the tradition of who was living in them years ago. Um, and and so you just got to get past those things and say bring the high-rises down so we can start growing again and do the right thing and be the Ram fam for the future. Uh, so that that that would be the exemplar that I would use there. Um, and and there was never any hate and discontent emails that I got, but you could tell there was tradition wrapped around those those two high-rises just standing there um and having no value other than just standing there. So that's how I would put that lane.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

That's that's great. Uh, you know, every organization, whether it be a university, a corporation, a nonprofit, the military has its traditions. I think there was a book by the um uh guy that led IBM for some time, and he talked about this that traditions are there for a reason, because they developed to meet a need or to drive growth, improvement at the time. And so they should be respected, but they shouldn't become sacred cows. They can't be reassessed. And so I think that's exactly what you're talking about with the tie with the high rise.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

Yeah. Yeah, he was all about that because he was in the throes of changing IBM from where where it was at and where it needed to go. And even now it's not the same IBM when he was there, which is a good thing to some re in some regard, uh, just because of the technology uh race that we're in right now.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Yeah. Can you share a habit or discipline that helped you stay grounded during your most stressful times?

SPEAKER_01 47:04

Yeah, the two habits and disciplines that I would talk about is uh prayer uh and and more importantly, the discipline of reading. Um and from that perspective, reading um from uh religious leaders that I respect and and and and not necessarily all of them Christian leaders as well, but the religious leaders that I respect uh and and and keep keeping keeping point on those and refreshing my my mind and my my scope and soul as a result of that. So if it you know it's a reading and uh prayer type of discipline that that keeps me grounded, and especially during difficult times, and we've had those in the last couple of months uh with some things that have come along um with expectations of what uh the law and leaders expect us to be doing at Angelo State. And yet again, you know, what's where is academic freedom and where is self-governance in getting those things done uh that we need to do? And the those two things, prayer and reading, are my bedrock for something like that.

SPEAKER_00 48:23

It makes me think that uh there's uh an illustration I've used many times over my career that um there used to be uh a video game on the Wii system for golf. Where the normal view is your next shot, you see trees, you may not see the hole, you're not sure where to go, but you push a button and it takes you to a bird's eye view. And then you can see the whole layout of the hole, plan out your shot. Um, and I viewed, like you've said, prayer that way. And even reading, getting a sense of reading from leaders, whether they be spiritual leaders or business leaders that have been through situations, both those things can give you a broader, higher perspective so you can more appropriately deal with the situation that you're in, um, and not be overwhelmed by just what you're seeing. So I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

Yeah, you know, the other analogy that I would use, I think it was Gretzky, you escape to where the puck isn't at right now. You know, and so you you gotta have a perspective to do that. Yeah. And mine is the uh I like what you talked about, the we video of sorts, but uh yeah, you just gotta you gotta trust, you gotta trust yourself in those in those time periods right there. Yeah, and that's what I do there. Great analogy there.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

Well, President Hawkins, it's been uh real pleasure to to have you on the podcast. Thank you for joining me. It's been great to hear your leadership journey and get practical takeaways uh we can all incorporate in leading our teams. Is there any any parting words that you would like to share with our listeners about about leadership or any encouragement?

SPEAKER_01 50:14

Well, the the parting word is you know, leadership is what you do, leaders are who you are. Um, and as I've shared with a lot of the the lead like a ram, as well as our leader 2.0, where we have staff and faculty in there, you lead people, you manage products. You can't manage, I say you can't. I I choose to not talk about managing people, you got to lead people. Uh, and your leadership characteristics and qualities will define and affect uh how you become the leader that people see you to be, uh, and that the that you want to be. So the that leadership is is your everyday life and how you do it, though. But thank you for allowing me just a few moments to ramble on in many regards. But uh it's been fun to think about those things and sit back and say, hey, I gotta reimagine how I respond to some of these questions. So appreciate you on the other end, Lane.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

Thank you very much. To those listening, thank you for joining joining us on the Leader Fast Lane. If today's conversation sparked a moment of reflection or a lane change in how you think about leadership, take a minute to share this episode with someone you lead or learn from. Join me next time when I will be joined by Jamie McIntosh, a prolific leader and mentor in international organizations around the globe. You can find more episodes wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, keep leading with purpose, integrity, and clarity, especially when it's hard.