The Leader Fast Lane - Episode 15 - with Ginger Kerrick Davis

In this episode, I talk with Ginger Kerrick Davis, former NASA Flight Director and Regent at the Texas Tech University System. Ginger is an exceptional leader with practical insight and tips for leaders at all levels. Highlights of this episode include:

2:32 - Ginger's role in the development and success of Artemis II

6:00 - her admonition not to "model yourself" after other but to glean leader tips

7:30 - "leaders come in all shapes and sizes"

13:43 - how to make risk-informed decisions and leave emotion out of the equation

22:26 - psychological safety, and idea killers versus idea boosters in a team

37:56 - "The greatest leader is not necessarily the one who does great things themself but who inspires and empowers others to do great things."

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Hello, and welcome to the Leader Facility, the podcast where accomplished leaders from higher education, public service, and beyond share real stories, practical principles, and hard-earned lessons listeners can apply immediately. No buzzwords, no shortcuts, just real leaders sharing real lessons you can apply right away. I'm Lane Mears, Assistant Vice Chancellor for Leader and Culture Development at the Texas Tech University System. Today I am joined by Ginger Karrick Davis. As Chief Strategy Officer for Barrios Technology, Ms. Davis strives strategic vision, identifies goals and actions required to achieve this vision, and leads the acquisition of the resources needed. Prior to joining Barrios' executive team in 2021, Ginger served in multiple senior leadership roles at NASA's Johnson Space Center. Most recently, she was Deputy Director of the Exploration, Integration, and Science Directorate, a senior executive service position. She spent the majority of her 30-year NASA career supporting JSC's Flight Operations Directorate in leadership roles, including Assistant Director for International Space Station, Flight Integration Division Chief, and Flight Director. She was NASA's first female Hispanic flight director. Early in her career, she was NASA's first Russian training integration instructor, as well as being selected as the first non-astronaut capsule communicator. Ginger received a Bachelor of Sciences, Bachelor of Science in Physics in 1991 and a Master of Science in Physics from Texas Tech University. She is passionate about inspiring others to pursue a science career and has given many talks about her space career to high school and college students. As a proud alumna of Texas Tech University, she served two years on the board of directors for the Texas Tech Alumni Association and taught in the STEM Master of Business Administration program at TTU's Rawls College of Business. In 2019, she was appointed by Governor Abbott to the Board of Regents of the Texas Tech University system for a six-year term, where she served as vice chairwoman of the board and chairwoman of the Academic, Clinical, and Student Affairs Committee. It's great to have you on the podcast, Ginger.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Thank you so much. Looking forward to our discussion today.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

I am too. Been looking forward to this. If you don't mind, I'd love to ask you to start off about Artemis II and your role in that effort and how this uh the success of that struck you.

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Oh, yes, absolutely. So when I during my final years at NASA, I actually helped um manage an organization with that got Artemis I ready. So that was the test flight. And when I moved over to Barrios, we have employees supporting Artemis II on the lead up and then the actual execution of the mission. So I was beyond excited. This has been years in the making. I went to the launch. I cried. Um, it was just uh you could feel the heat from that rocket, and it reminded me of the shuttle days uh where you could actually feel it in your chest. And I know each one of those astronauts, and I'm just so proud of them. And I love how the world fell in love with them, and they are wonderful humans, wonderful leaders, and it was just a joy to see that mission execute so relatively flawlessly.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Yeah. Well, what struck me, obviously, besides the the uh amazing years of effort and science that went into that, but just the way that it united people, everybody, like you said, was was invested in it, attentive to it, awed at the success of it. And there's very little, frankly, in in today's society that unites us, but this really did, and that was inspiring.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

Yeah, we needed that. The world needed that. And I couldn't think of four ambassadors uh to bring that to us.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Yep, absolutely. I'd like to just ask if you can share a little bit about your background and leadership journey, and then I'll get into some specific questions on your background.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

Oh, sure. So I um I think my my leadership journey really started when I was young. You know, if I saw something that wasn't right, even at five years old, I would lead an initiative to go fix it. Yeah, I I remember um uh asking for new tinker toys in kindergarten, and they said we couldn't afford it. And then I learned that my mom had been involved in something in the neighborhood where they got a petition. And I thought, I'm gonna get a petition. So I got kids to sign. They couldn't even write their name, they're putting an X. And so I but I went to the school principal and I said, I have a petition, and I demand that we get tinker toys. And she thought, oh no, you're gonna be a little handful, but um, but I think it was just a product of good parenting. My my mom and dad basically told me that I could do anything I wanted to do, and um and so and equipped me with the skills to do it. So I I I knew that I liked the position of a leader. And it over the course of my college career at tech and my early days at NASA, I had an opportunity to observe people in leadership positions that helped inform how I would want to approach it.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Follow up on that. Is there is there a leader that you have tended to model yourself after more than others?

SPEAKER_03 6:10

No, and I actually discourage people to do that. Um, we are all unique individuals and um we all lead very differently, but there are things that you can pick up, both examples and non-examples come in quite handy. Not gonna do that. Um so I I like to see those traits or characteristics, and then I try them on. Will this fit for me? Uh, because not everything you see that works for someone else will work for you.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Yeah. Sure. And I I echo that. That I I frankly, I think I've probably learned more as a leader from from poor leaders than than good, than effective leaders. Um But that I like I like that perspective that that you can't necessarily model yourself at someone after someone, but you can pick up mannerisms or practices that you might incorporate.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Excellent. I've got a series of questions on a few different topics, um, and we'll go topic by topic, and we may veer off course at times, but we'll um we'll always come back to kind of finding practical tips that leaders uh that are listening can apply. But the first topic is leading in high-stakes environments. So you've led in one of the most high-stakes environments imaginable, NASA mission control. What did that experience teach you about leadership? And how did that experience shape how you led in other roles?

SPEAKER_03 7:47

Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, it is a very unique role, and we raise our leaders that work in mission control to lead very differently than you do in the outside real world, as I call it. Um, but what I learned there was um that leaders come in all shapes and sizes. When I became a flight director, I thought, oh my gosh, you know, the Apollo 13, the guy in the vest and the buzzcut, and very serious all the time. That's how I have to lead. And I would find people that were really quiet leaders that were still able to get people to follow them. And then I'd get the in-your-face military-style leaders that were that would have people follow them. Um, so my what I learned is that it just it it comes in all shapes and sizes, leaders do. And um, you can have the quiet ones, the military in your face ones, and everything in between. Um, so that that is my my big takeaway from my mission control days. But the moment I became a leader outside of mission control, after I had been pre-programmed um inside of mission control, I realized that I needed to adapt my style to the environment that I was in. When you're in the environment of mission control, you have the lives of the crew in your hand. I'm gonna leave very differently than um with in a meeting with my Japanese counterparts where I'm trying to get their agreement on a protocol that we're signing for future.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Yeah, right. And that's something that we when we work with faculty and staff at Midwestern State, at Angelo State, and and some with Texas Tech, on leadership styles, that that the context will dictate how you, maybe not your personality, but how you engage in leadership. Um so I appreciate that. But your first point is is fascinating about about different styles that I think maybe in popular culture and maybe in a lot of people's minds, that the image of a leader is someone that's that's strong and forceful and decisive and loud and dynamic, um, but that's not doesn't fit everybody. And there are leaders that have very different, very effective leaders that have different personalities. And I'm encouraged to hear that, and I think some of the listeners will be too, because we don't all have that big dynamic personality, but we are all leaders in some respects. And so for someone who may not have that big personality, that extroversion, that domineering, maybe not that's not the right word, but just strong personality. How is how is someone with maybe more of a silent, uh, unassuming personality? What does that leadership look like to you?

SPEAKER_03 10:51

Yeah. Whenever I come up, particularly with students where they they get they come in and they're new hires and and they want to lead, and I can identify right away that this is that that personality type, I like to match them with people that I know have been successful leading in that way. Um, I feel ill-equipped to build those people into leaders because I have never led from that perspective. So I think it's important for leaders, as you're developing new leaders, to identify that maybe you are not the person that can help them get to the next phase. Um, ironically, the person I had a situation like this, and the person I introduced them to was the lead flight director for Artemis One, who was just the quietest man you'd ever meet, so pleasant, but he could get people to follow him, and he was able to success successfully execute that mission. So matching them with somebody that they um can learn from more easily and see a living example of what you want them to become.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

That's great. Just as you're talking, I'm thinking, you know, a lot of the leadership books, and there's unlimited numbers of leadership books, but they're often written by people who have that dynamic, strong, you know. I one of my favorite books is Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink is just a SEAL Navy the Navy's Navy SEAL. Um, but I yeah, I I think there needs to be more of that um perspective of people that are have a little bit quieter, uh lower to intensity leadership because that's a lot of the population, and people can be very effective leaders in that. So I'm encouraged to hear that uh your your perspective on that.

SPEAKER_03 12:47

Yeah, I think um emotional intelligence comes in many forms, and and for those leaders, they rely on that, I think, a lot more heavily because um you don't you don't get to see that what the traditional leadership, you know, even posture is coming out from some of these people. But I find that those quiet leaders are the ones that can listen more, they understand themselves, they genuinely get to know other people that they have to interact with, and they can adapt their style to match what these other people are looking for and are able to lead quietly in that way just by through emotional intelligence.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Excellent. I love that. I'm gonna shift topics of a similar topic, but it's decision making under pressure. In mission control, I'm sure that hesitation can be extremely costly. How do you train yourself and your team to make high-quality decisions quickly?

SPEAKER_03 13:54

Ah, yes. Okay. So in mission control, we make risk-informed decisions. We don't make emotionally based decisions, we make risk-informed decisions. So at any given moment, you have a set of data. And I need you when we have a crew in space, the decisions you make, you need to make sure how does this impact the life of the crew? Because I have to protect it. How does this impact the integrity of my spacecraft? And how does this impact us, our ability to execute the mission, those three things in that priority order? So we train our folks in simulations, and we will present the nominal mission plan, and they'll be marching along and making their decisions like they normally can, normally do, and we'll throw something at them. And I want to see do you go to that natural human response of panic and fear and indecision? Or can you take those emotions and set them aside and make risk-informed decisions? So as we're training them and I see them going down a human path, you know, sometimes I will tell them, hey, what are you carrying? And they'll look at me and I'm like, oh man, I brought my emotions in here. You better go set those down. I need you to set those down. And I sometimes I will make them go and physically set them down somewhere and come back to the console. And I'm like, all right, you're ready to make risk-informed decisions? Yes, ma'am. Uh so we have to train folks to do that because it is not in most people's DNA to set your emotions aside and make risk-informed decisions.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Wow, that's that's fascinating. I love the the uh objectifying that emotions. What are you carrying? And and that uh brings to mind some of the things from my premarital counseling with my wife on how to how to resolve you know arguments and just like have the the disagreement like it's a physical object on the table. You then turn shoulder to shoulder and decide how are we going to address that? And that's powerful when you can make it a thing that then you're dropping off, and so you can move into the risk-informed decision.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

It helps them train their brain uh to be able to do that. The other thing in mission control with the where you have to make quiz quick decisions. Sometimes in the real world, we'll have a decision that we need to make, and we gather data, and you look at the data and you're like, Oh, I wish I had more data. I'm gonna wait. I'm not gonna decide anything. I'm gonna wait till I get more data. You can't do that in mission control. Your vehicle is on a specific trajectory, and I need you to make a decision, or we're gonna take a different trajectory, or there's a scenario on board that impacts the crew's lives. So there, I just give my my employees permission. You have, I am not asking you to predict the future. You have a certain amount of data right now. With that data, what decision that you make? Not what you wish you had, what you might get next week, today, what's your decision? If this is a one-way door, this this is we're gonna talk about this just a little bit longer because I can't back out of this decision. But if it's a two-way door, if we decide this, and then next week we get more data, I'm happy to adjust our course. But today, what is your sh decision today? And if you give people that framework, you'll never you'll never doubt the decision you made.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Right.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

I made the best decision I had with the data I had today.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Yeah. It's it's uh essentially like a ruthless confronting of reality. You can't wish for something different, but uh but then and then on the back end, like you've said, trusting that you made the best decision possible with the data you had in hand.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Excellent. How do you so you you talked a little bit about this, but how do you distinguish between when to push forward with a decision versus uh when to pause in a high-stakes situation?

SPEAKER_03 18:08

Yeah, so it's uh it's really a continuous risk management. Yeah, it it's a process. So um I have a decision to make and I don't know if I do if I have time to pause. If I pause, is this gonna impact the crew? Is it gonna put them at risk? Is it gonna put the vehicle at risk? Is it gonna put the mission at risk? Or is it a scenario where I do have time to think? And then if I'm gonna push forward, does it pushing forward right now reduce my risk, protect the crew, reduce the risk to the vehicle, reduce the risk to executing the mission? So it's really a continuous risk management process. You have to have the first gate out of that is am I does a situation allow me to pause? And if so, for how long?

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Excellent. Yeah, the one thing that we we we one of the topics we cover in some of our programs is is critical thinking and decision making. And it's it's a bit of a blind spot for a lot of people that indecision is a decision that has consequences. And when when you're in a situation where that pause won't have catastrophic consequences, then you can take it. But pausing for perfect information or more information really can at times lead to further outcomes, further negative outcomes.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Completely agree. And one one framework that we use for our flight controllers is um I it's called next worst failure. So you're in a scenario and maybe it's a uh something that happened uh that went wrong on the on the space station, for example. You ask yourself, what is if I don't do anything right now, what's the next worst thing that can happen? So for example, we had a we have a pump that fails, and there's a it's there's a second pump. Okay, but if that second pump goes down, oh I'm gonna lose cooling to half my vehicle. Oh, I better do something. So you have to train folks to think as part of that decision matrix and the continuous risk management, what is the next worst thing that can happen? And it actually comes in quite handy in your personal personal life too. Even just driving a car somewhere. What's the if I do this, what's the next worst thing? Oh, okay. No, I'm not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Yeah. Fascinating. So a follow-up question that was not in our our pre-discussed outline. How do you see AI its role in that calculation? Um, obviously it's a human decision, but the AI can assist in maybe making some of those calculations.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

Yes. So I am really looking forward to using AI in this capacity. Right now, the trust is not there. And so you need to have the human element who has been there done that in mission control. But one you know, small step toward that is part of this next worst failure thing is is, you know, um, when has this happened before? What were the consequences? And so we have people manually looking up. Um, well, let me go to the anomaly reporting system and type this in. And when did this happen before? So, step one of that AI journey would be to get the system to pull out for you as soon as something fails. Here's your history. This is when it's happened before. This is what we did, you know, how we responded to it. And maybe in the future, it could take that action for you so that you don't have to. Uh and we're gonna need that. Particularly on journeys to Mars, because you cannot train all the smarts and the crew that you're going to send over there. And you have roughly 20-minute delay and communication back with Earth, depending upon where you are in your journey. So coding that vehicle with AI, with the autonomous decision making, is going to be really key.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Fascinating. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how this develops. All right. Next topic is something you you briefly mentioned previously is emotional intelligence. Well, psychological safety and emotional intelligence. But so NASA is known for its rigorous communication. How do you create an environment where even the most junior person will speak up if something feels off?

SPEAKER_03 22:46

Oh, yeah. So this goes back to every single um investigation report that you know, after a major NASA incident, this is what gets highlighted. So I I use a unique approach. Um a long time ago, I was at a conference in France, and a guy was giving a talk, and he had a little card, and one side of the card was red and it said idea killers, and the other side of the card was green, and it said idea boosters. And I thought, oh my gosh, I'm going to use this. And it was like a little coaster. And anytime my employees would say something. So the important thing is you as a leader, you do not shut that down. If they say something, you're like, you can't say that's stupid, that'll never work. We've tried that before. We don't have budget for that. Are you crazy? It can't be done. That's on those are all phrases on the red side of this card. So you have to be able to say, okay, I'm not understanding where you're coming from. Tell me more. I must be missing something. And you ask questions and you try to get more information. And if you do that in public in front of all your employees, now they're like, oh, okay. Um, I originally thought that thing was crazy too, but she is not shutting him down. I can say anything in here. And then I use these cards, I pass them out to my employees. And I said, it shouldn't be just me. You guys shouldn't shut each other down. You may learn something from exchanges like this. So I handed them all these cards and I said, if anybody does this, you know, first person to throw a red card, you know, gets a prize. And so they they thought it was a game now and they're enjoying it. And so they are policing each other and trying to get each other not to shut each other down. So that's how you create a true culture where everybody feels safe.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

I love it. Where do you where do you get those cards?

SPEAKER_03 24:58

Oh, so this is if you if you go to, I think you can, I think they're still in business, i ideakillers.net or ideaboosters.net, you can find them. I thought it was wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

That's perfect. I love it. Um, we talk a lot about this again, both with with students, faculty, and staff on on psychological safety and and and the responsibility of leaders to create that atmosphere where they can get bad information. There's a a quote from a CEO, I can't remember which one that that we referred to is that the greatest fear of a CEO is they're not getting the real situation on the ground. Yes. And that if if you've created an environment in which people are afraid to share bad news or uh input, then your decision matrix is off, and that can lead to negative outcomes. So I love that that practice. Have you seen situations where people didn't speak up and what leaders can learn from that?

SPEAKER_03 26:00

Oh, yes. I I still you know, it's going back to our our quiet leaders, our quiet employees. Um, if you are in a scenario where you learned something three months after you were, you should have known it, you got to ask yourself why. What role did I play in that? And oftentimes that will come from an employee who doesn't feel comfortable speaking up in a public setting. It's not who they are, it's not their personality type. You as a leader need to know that. You need to know that this individual will never speak up in your meetings, and you need to figure out how am I going to get the information I need from that individual differently. So there are employees that I will follow up with. I'll and I know their faces. I'll watch their face in a meeting and I know it's happening. But if I know if I call upon them in the meeting, they're it'll be like their worst living nightmare that they have to speak. So I will get them on Teams. You better type in here what you're thinking right now, and uh, I'll say it out loud. You don't have to, it's okay. So you just the more you know your employees, the better you can extract that information from from those that don't feel comfortable sharing.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

You mentioned earlier uh the dynamic leading differently when you're on you know in the flight director and then engaging with some Japanese counterparts. And my experience overseas is that culture plays a big role in this. And certainly in my experience, from time of my times in Africa, it was very deferential to leaders and and the culture had trained people not to counter, not to push back against leaders. And my one of my main jobs was to change that so that I could have the best information. And I imagine working for NASA, it wasn't that you encountered some of those cultural differences.

SPEAKER_03 27:59

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I had to work with my Russian counterparts and I would deal with them differently than my Japanese counterparts.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Yep. Yep. So yeah, that it just takes practice and drawing it out and finding a way to culturally appropriately and relevantly to engage with people so that you have that information.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

On governance and leadership, our next topic. How does leadership change when you move from operational roles into governance, like serving as a regent at Texas Tech University System?

SPEAKER_03 28:35

Oh, yes, that was an interesting transition for me as well. Um, you know, you know, of course, the the decisions that the board makes is are very critical and um have impact a lot of stakeholders. However, no one is going to die today if I make decision X, Y, or Z. So we have a little bit more time to arrive at most of our decisions. So that was one difference. But the other difference has to deal with the fact that we represent the system. Um, we do not represent a single university, um, and we serve at the pleasure of the governor. So there are other factors that we have to take in in our decision making that may be political in nature, that may be um uh for each individual university, but but what what makes them thrive yet be a um a better member of the team as a whole. So so though those were the the the differences from that operational high cadence. I gotta make a decision today to all right, let's look at all of the things that could impact any given decision and weigh those in and take our our time where we can.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

I imagine that that shotomy between those two probably could be a little frustrating at times.

SPEAKER_03 30:09

Yes, because I would channel flight director ginger sometimes in our meetings and uh uh particularly in executive session, and then they would just laugh and they're like, there she goes, there she goes.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Well, from a board perspective, what what did you most want institutional leaders to understand about alignment and communication?

SPEAKER_03 30:32

Um Yeah, I I think um you know, particularly when we brought on some of the newer members with you know ASU and MSU, initially there was apprehension. Oh my gosh, are we gonna change who we are as a university? Um, but once they got into the system, they realized our system is different. And for institutional leaders, we're not here to tell you what to do, we're we're here to enhance who you are. Um, and and it's quite refreshing because I hear stories from um colleagues of mine that serve on other boards in other systems, and it is not the same. Um so from from and when we're asking you to um align to this new process or to communicate what you're doing or to share communications. And I as the ACS um committee chair, I I challenge them to do research across universities in the system uh because I want to we're better together. You know, the Artemis II crew, we were just talking about that. It's amazing what we can achieve when we work together and we are all part of the this the a team.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

That's great. One of the things that um I believe unites every aspect of the system is the emphasis on values. TTUS has a very strong emphasis on values-based culture, as you well know. Chancellor Mitchell's vision that has that has continued. So, how do you stay grounded in your values when you're under intense pressure or scrutiny?

SPEAKER_03 32:25

So just like with the university system and all the universities, um with their values-based culture, if you have a true values-based culture, and whether it be you as part of a university or a system or you yourself, those values are exhibited, are demonstrated in your behaviors. If it otherwise they're just cute little icons on a piece of paper. So if they are embodied in what you do, what you say, how you behave, whether you're under pressure or not, that they are going, you're going to stay true to them because you have and you have embraced this value and it is who you are. If you find yourself in a scenario where you feel that you're conflicted, um, then you really haven't fulfilled the the values-based culture journey. So I I find it very easy to stay grounded in my values because they do guide, whether in in those scenarios, because they do guide my actions day to day.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

How about the situation where it's you've got to make a decision and you just believe there's a technically correct decision, but it's personally difficult or have maybe have personal consequences. What's your thought process there?

SPEAKER_03 33:53

That's always hard. I'll use my current company as an example. Um, one of our company values is Barrio's family. You know, we we really invest in our employees and we wanna want them to do well with the company and have all kinds of opportunities. Well, sometimes part of being in a family is um addressing counterproductive behavior. So I may have to have a conversation with an employee, or and and it may result in putting them on a performance plan and maybe them not fulfilling it and having to leave the company. So personally difficult, yeah, this is a human being, they have a family, they have commitment. Um, but professionally, this is a business and and part of being tough love. Welcome to Barrio's family. So um that is something I think anybody in any industry can face. Um, you you you sometimes have to make difficult decisions, but they're in line with our values, but they have personal consequences, and you just have to accept that and and as part of your role as a leader.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Let's talk a little bit about Barrios. Uh how how did that come to be, the the values culture at Barrios? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:19

So I uh when I first came to the company, um, they had some values, core values on their website. And I, because of the training actually I had received uh as a member of the Board of Regents and some of the um uh initiatives that I've been involved in with Steve Soslin, I I had that book and I said, let's let's uh talk about values-based culture. And I talked to the president and CEO, and they just freely admitted we have um icons on a website and hopes for who we want to be. And I said, All right, well, let's go and let me lead you through an exercise. So we actually did that with the company when I first came on board in 2021.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

That's fantastic. And that's one of the things that I think is um, well, one of the primary charges for for this office, the Office of Leader in Culture Development, is not only the identification of values that define a team or a college or a university, but the operationalization of that, which is the really the difficult part, the time-intensive, the intentionality part of it. Um, but it's transformational, like you've said.

SPEAKER_03 36:28

It's it really is uh and if you do it right, the employees will just like the little card that I was talking about for not shooting down ideas, the employees will call each other out on it.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

Um and it that's when you know you've achieved what you were looking to achieve.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Absolutely. And we the spring is when we do leader development programming for students. And and my purview has been Angelo State, Midwestern State. And we were at Midwestern State in January, first session, we talk about uh the the leader compass, which are the values that divine the system, and then the values at Midwestern State. And we put the the uh the photo on the screen of the values of the university and asked the students, do you see these being lived out every on campus? And it was remarkable. They all knew the values, they could cite examples of of how they've seen that, how they exercise it. And man, it was so cool to see that because you very happy, yes.

SPEAKER_03 37:29

Because I was there at the beginning when we started doing their values-based culture journey. That's wonderful to hear.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

It really is. Because like you've alluded to, I've I've been a part of nonprofits, the federal government, where there's values that are on the wall in a conference room and it's a nice decoration, but it's not lived out. But to see that in the students was really powerful. All right, we're gonna move to our speed round, some short answer questions. What uh what is a word or phrase your teams would use to describe your leadership?

SPEAKER_03 38:08

Firm and fair.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Okay. Excellent. What does great leadership look like in one sentence?

SPEAKER_03 38:20

So I thought about this. Um the greatest leader is not necessarily the one who does great things themselves, but who inspires and empowers others to do great things.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Which by the nature of that answer involves lots of humility.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

Yes. Yes. That you know, we talked about characteristics of leaders that you have observed. Um that one right there is to me gold. I have watched leaders that have check all the other boxes, but are not, you know, do not exhibit humility. And I have a hard time following those.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Yeah. Agreed. Um the the initial episode of this podcast was an old friend of mine, a State Department employee, that had his his mindset is if there are problems or failures as the leader, he's gonna own that. If there are achievements or successes, he is gonna give away accolades. And yes, Clay Cash Regent uh echoed the same sentiment in in in the episode that we had on. And I really do think that that's that is the uh a strong mark of an effective leader, people that a leader that people will want to follow.

SPEAKER_03 39:48

Yep, I completely agree. And I would follow Clay Clay Cash any day.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Well, what any any final words of wisdom or encouragement for listeners uh on their leadership journeys?

SPEAKER_03 40:03

No, uh just that it is exactly what you just said a journey. You know, I've been doing this, been in the industry for 35 years, and I'm still learning something new every day. So I would encourage your listeners, you know, go and read books, listen to these podcasts, but don't stop there. Look at how you can apply what you just read, what you just heard, what you just learned, just one part of that in your day-to-day life. Um, and then a week from now, you can do one more part and one more part. The the bottom line is you're you should never stop learning, never stop trying to figure out how to apply what you've learned because there's always something new out there.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Absolutely. And that experimentation will will come right up against people's perfectionism, feeling like they have to portray an ideal leader's mindset and and and image. Um but but learning, continuous learning, continuous experimentation, trying new things is uh is powerful. Yes, I agree. Ginger, thank you so much for joining me.

SPEAKER_03 41:13

Thank you. Uh it's been a real pleasure, and thank you for what you're doing here and uh trying to promote the education of our staff and faculty and anyone, quite frankly, that hears this podcast. I really appreciate your efforts.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Thank you. It's been it's been a lot of fun uh to engage with with with exceptional leaders like you, and also to uh find ways to help the folks that we're engaging with on the campuses to be more effective leaders, to enjoy that role more off more um more than they had been, um, and yeah, to have success. So thank you for for this. It's been great to hear your leadership journey and to get practical takeaways that we can all incorporate in leading our teams. To those listening, thank you for joining me on the Leader Fast Lane. If today's conversation sparked a moment of reflection or a lane change in how you think about leadership, take a minute to share this episode with someone you lead or learn from. You can find more episodes wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, keep leading with purpose, integrity, and clarity. Especially if it's hard to do.