The Leader Fast Lane - Episode 27 - with Namatai Kwekweza, Founding Director of WeLEAD Africa

Namatai Kwekweza has endured arrest, intimidation, and imprisonment for standing up for democracy and human rights in Zimbabwe. Yet her leadership lessons extend far beyond activism, offering powerful insights on courage, community, reading, and developing the inner resilience needed to lead through uncertainty. This conversation is a compelling reminder that extraordinary leadership begins with ordinary people who choose to keep moving forward despite fear. 

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Hello and welcome to the Leader Fast Lane, the podcast where accomplished leaders from higher education, public service, and beyond share real stories, practical principles, and hard-earned lessons listeners can incorporate in their everyday work. No buzzwords, no shortcuts, just real leaders sharing real lessons you can apply right away. I'm Lane Mears, Assistant Vice Chancellor for Leader in Culture Development at the Texas Tech University System. Today I am joined by Namatai Kwekuza, a Zimbabwean and Pan-African human rights activist and advocate for constitutionalism, youth empowerment, and women's rights. She is the founder of We Lead Africa, a youth-led leadership and advocacy organization operating across Southern Africa. Through her work, she promotes democratic governance, civic participation, and constitutional integrity, especially among youth and women in marginalized communities. Her approach combines grassroots mobilization, policy advocacy, leadership development, constitutional rights education, and digital activism. Namatai has impacted thousands of young Africans by equipping them with tools and platforms for civic engagement and leadership. Her work has also influenced regional and international policy conversations on democracy and human rights. She is the recipient of several honors, including the 2025 German Africa Prize, the inaugural Kofi Annan Next Gen Democracy Prize, and the Walkabout Prize under the Next Generation Foresight Practitioners Awards. It's great to have you on the podcast, Namatai.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

It's really great to be healing. Thank you so much for having me as your guest.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Listeners, Namatai and I crossed paths in Zimbabwe when I was working for USAID, and she's uh a remarkable uh person doing amazing work across the continent and beyond to raise awareness of rights violations and uh helping people to enjoy the rights that that they should enjoy wherever they might live. And so I'm looking forward to this conversation. As we start, could you share a little bit about your background and leadership journey?

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Uh so thank you so much, Lane. Um, yes, I just wanted to start uh where it begins. Um I think it's always a great place to start where it begins. And uh I am my mother's child. Um, this is where I start. And um I grew up here in Zimbabwe. I am Zimbabwean, and uh I would say that I grew up in a family where, you know, there was a lot of care, there was a lot of compassion, there was a lot of love. And I think one of the things that my mom used to say to me is that uh I resembled quite significantly uh my great-grandmother, um Agnes Matisi. Uh she had a fiery spirit. Uh, everyone knew it. Uh, that she, like if you if you ever went loggerheads with her, you knew you would not win. She had a fiery spirit. Um, I never met her, but my mom said that I resembled her in many respects, uh, especially in personality. Um, and also uh my late aunt uh as well. Um, and it's quite unfortunate that at the time of her passing, we were also not in good books because she had a strong personality. Um, my grandmother as well is a little bit feisty. Um, my mom's a very chilled person. So I think the thing that I learned is that I'm coming from like a succession, an inheritance, and heritage of, you know, very, very strong uh matriarchal leadership and like very strong women. And these are women who, you know, at different points in their lives, had to fight to own property. I know my grandmother had to really fight to own property uh at a time when it could not happen for women. I know my great-grandmother had to um, you know, fight the uh colonial system because they took away her child, who was um half black and half Indian, uh, and she fought quite significantly. And I think it's a testament to say that uh there's a success of generations of um of people who refuse to accept things as they were and as they were given. Um and I think all that comes crashing down in in 1998, in November of 1998, when I was born. Um and um I think my childhood was a joyful childhood, uh, I would say. It was not perfect, we did not have everything. Um, and I think there's stories of uh a healthy and joyful childhood, irregardless of the circumstances. So, for instance, uh we used to go out and play in the mud. Um, initially, I grew up in a neighborhood called Notton. Um, and in this neighborhood, uh all the houses were the same, you know. And then eventually I moved to Harare, uh, in, you know, in a nice flashy neighborhood uh called Boradell. And then everybody like was different, you know. Some had big gates, some had, you know, so I think all of these experiences uh helped to shape my paradigm in the context of the haves and the have-nots. But I think a consistent thread that makes me who I am and that has shaped a lot of my identity and my leadership is a lot of the stuff that was happening in our country. So I do have vivid memories of not having electricity for weeks on end or not having um uh food uh to buy in the stalls and the shops, you know, for instance. The the stalls were there, there was nothing. I I have recollections of how, you know, if in 2008 I would be given, you know, 20 billion dollars for my bus fare, you know, quite literally, uh, because of inflation, right? Um, you know, we do have instances where we were told to stay at home because it was the the situation was tense um outside. And in in our childhood, we never could quite understand, but all of that was low-key shaping us. So the the place where I land is um in 2015-2016. Um my mom was retrenched uh from her job. She worked for an NGO called World Vision, um, and she is a single mom, by the way, so there are four of us. And the retrenchment circumstances were around Supreme Court judges that connived with uh business interest, with businessmen who wanted to lay off people on the controversial termination by notice, whereby even if you had an open-ended whatever contract, basically, you would just be terminated on a three-month notice. And my mom, unfortunately, was one of the people who was affected. Um, and overnight, we went from being um a household that uh, you know, I don't say I couldn't say we were rich, but we were okay, to actually maybe sometimes not having food on the table. Um, like those real struggles, you know, like uh not being unsure about uh school. Uh for uh when I finished high school, I could not go to university immediately because of the situation at home. Um, and I think at that point it became quite brazen and apparent that there was a very strong correlation between um policies, power, and people. And it was very brazen that there were certain people that had power that could make a statutory instrument to get people trenched or laid off, and that ultimately that policy would be determining factor on whether or not Namatai could go to school, on whether or not my little sister could have food. Um, basically, it would alter people's lives in that respect. So I think these are the earliest recollections I have with regards to you know what has shaped me as a person, and when I really became conscious about um what was happening in our country.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Yeah. Powerful. And and just the the the real life experience of seeming injustice, certainly, like you've talked about, the impact of policies on real people and and how that shaped you into wanting to make a difference. I I admire that. You founded We Lead while still a teenager. What did you see that convinced you that someone your age couldn't afford to wait for permission to lead, to take action?

SPEAKER_01 8:16

That's an interesting one. So I would say that uh We Lead in itself as an institution um is the convergence of my consciousness and my activism. And I often like to uh separate, make a clear distinction between um work um, you know, as an activist and also the work that we do, you know, with our team at WeLead. Um I do know that a lot of you know traces of my personality and identity would definitely, you know, reverberate within the context of that institution. Uh, but I often like to make that distinction because I'm one of those individuals or leaders who has made it quite clear that I would transition out at a certain point. And I think it would be nice if the organization develops an institutional personality of its own. Um I basically would say that uh this the founding of We Lead, uh the predecessor of that, were my radical convictions and beliefs um in you know, justice, um, inequality and fairness. But I think fundamentally answering a generational question, and I think in Africa at the time, uh it was the questions around the leadership deficit. Uh everybody could agree that, you know, the major issues of contestation within the context of Africa were this leadership. And um, a lot of the difficulties people had experienced were were a reflection of a failure, uh of a dysfunction, of a malfunction in leadership. And the reality of the matter is leadership in itself is not a thing of circumstance or chance. So of all of the individuals that you think are good leaders, that we know in history to be good leaders, these are people that were developed. So you cannot sit around and say, oh, yeah, well, they'll they'll fall from the sky, you know, there's good leaders. We have to actually invest in infrastructure that can replicate and reproduce uh the kinds of leaders that we want. So it cannot be something that we leave to chance or fate. We have to be quite intentional and deliberate. So that was also radical conviction. And I do sense that that conviction is not only now applicable in an African context, but it is actually quite applicable uh internationally because we've seen a spiraling uh like of bad leadership. Like it's it's like a vowed fire. Everywhere you look, uh, there are individuals and people who wield a disproportionate amount of influence and power, but who sincerely, genuinely do not care. They don't care about anyone except for themselves, maybe their families and they care about money and power. I would say that uh one of the things that I learned a lot in um Western, especially American culture, is this idea that you know people can, you know, forge their own destiny. I think there's this whole thing about uh, you know, self-made, etc. And I think if you explore that uh in the context of how we have the power to make decisions that can change our own lives uh within our own individual capacities, if you were to give a person in a family, uh perhaps a parent or a father or mother who has some sort of power over their kids, you know, you you you apply that in that situation in that context, what you realize is that beyond their capacity to make decisions that affect them as a mom or a dad, they're making decisions that ultimately will shape and alter the destinies of their children. So if they decide that I would not, you know, send my kids to school, for instance, or I would not uh, you know, invest in their quality health care or whatever, I don't know, then it ultimately affects their kids. Now, you bring that into a nation, right? You have a government that has this power. They can decide that, oh, uh, you know, the revenue we have received this year from, you know, selling gold or diamonds or from agriculture, we want to invest in education, we want to invest in healthcare. Um, ultimately, it's a leader who is making a decision that can alter the entire destiny of a nation. And I think this becomes true at a continental scale and it becomes true at an international scale, where there are certain leaders in certain countries who can make decisions that will alter the destinies of an entire planet. So I think when we really reflect on leadership, we have to reflect on it based off of the power and the magnitude it has to impact the destinies, not just of individuals, right, but of families, of communities, of states, uh, and of the entire world. And I think it makes sense to also want to have leaders who care. So I will stop here for now.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

That's good. I'm gonna have some follow-up questions on some of the topics that you've raised. Um, but but as we as we continue, I've got a series of questions on a few different themes that I'll ask you. But the first theme is leadership under pressure. So your work, because of the nature of it and because of of where you where you work, has resulted in arrests, intimidation, and significant personal risk for you. When that fear is completely rational, because it's real, this threat, how do you how does a leader keep moving forward in the face of that fear?

SPEAKER_01 13:44

That's a very, very uh deep and uh challenging question. Um so the thing that I want to just emphasize and stress, um, and I think I'm quite now mindful, especially because I get invited to a lot of these speaking engagements, is I always make the invitation that people um do not make the assumption uh that uh because you know we've received a few accolades here and there and whatever, that we've become uh you know stronger or better or like I am a girl. Like I've described myself countless times as I am just a girl. And I think that the capacity to experience a fear is real. Uh, I often tell the story that uh in 2024, um after we were abducted and then sent to prison, and then we were released from prison. Um, on the night that we were released from prison, um, I remember there were a lot of journalists who were waiting outside. And I'm always quite intrigued. I share the story all the time when I see men who have been uh you know released from prison and they are activists and they're political leaders, and uh, you know, they quickly go to speak to journalists and they have their Mandela speech all set up. Like, I mean, for me, I just wanted to take a bath, man. Like, I just wanted to just go take a bath, you know. So I want to just really reiterate that uh there are moments uh when the fear, the intimidation, and and all of the abuse and you know the systemic weight, the pressures that the system, you know, puts on you, there are moments where you will feel them in a very human way. And this has been my way. I I don't know about other people who might have different ways, but this has been my way. So it is to allow one to experience the fear, to acknowledge that this is intimidating, this is scary, um, and to, you know, to allow one to have a natural, you know, human response to it. But I think fundamentally the recaliberation has to then happen. And I think for me, the recalibration to be able to continue despite the arrest is premised on solidarity uh and community, and that would be the first thing. Um there is something fundamentally beautiful and special about uh the solidarity that I would receive and people writing me little notes or letters, or that I would get food and gifts from people I did not know. I do not know who told people that I have a sweet tooth, but I got too much candy, especially when I was attested. Yeah. Yeah, so so so I it's the craziest thing, but I would be people were sending me chocolates and sweets and candy. Um, in fact, I've received more candy and chocolates uh while I was in prison than I have received from anyone uh outside of prison. Uh, but um it's it's just like the thoughtfulness. Um, solidarity is a powerful thing. Um, when we are in trouble and we have a community and a constituency of people uh that still believe in our work, even the smallest suggests can make a difference. So I think the first thing that I would say is critical is the aspect of constituency uh community and solidarity. I would further say that um one has to work on their internal state to build their capacity to receive good things, because I have learned that the very act of receiving and welcoming solidarity, be it from a lawyer who is representing you with legal aid, or the people that come to see you in court, or the people that um, you know, write about you, the journalist or whoever, um, one has to increase their threshold and capacity to receive good things, um, in the sense that a lot of the times it can you know overwhelm you. But also it's the cognizance of knowing what to accept, when to accept, and what not to accept, because I think one has received a lot um in the context of support in time of crisis. The next thing that I do perceive has been critical in the context of continuing the work has been a deep-rooted sense of consciousness. Um, I have read good books and I still encourage people to read, especially young people. I'm a Gen Z. Uh you know, a lot of the times people criticize us for not having the attention spun longer than the average TikTok video. Um and I think a lot of that um, you know, uh, you know, digital uh uh you call it an inacia or something like that, that resistance that we that has been caused by the fact that we are consist consistently in our gadgets. I think one of the biggest and most critical ways to deal with that is to read. And I've read good books. Um be it from nonfiction uh to fiction, I've read good books. Um I have so many African authors that I would recommend any day, from Damboza Marikera to Gorgiwationg, Wallace Sainka, Timamandangothea Dice, you know, Petina Gapa, it's like those are exceptional writers. Um and I think some of them do not identify as activists in their writing, but I do think the way that they critique uh society and its constructs is in its, you know, self and a form of activism. And I think that reading also has given me the ability to uh see what's possible because I think a lot of the characters, a lot of the lessons you carry with you from the books you read, build a solid base of consciousness that even in difficult times that I've been through uh when you're under pressure, a lot of those things have been able to sustain me. Uh, the final two things that have been critical for me have been spirituality. Um, I'm not religious at all, but uh I do have a deep sense of connection um to a higher dimension. Um and this higher dimension for me is a deep sense of connection to uh life, death, but also, you know, the land that we we walk upon, um, you know, the reavers to make an honoring of that, you know, um, the air that we breathe. And I think I approached this with a deep amount of gratitude. Um, even in my most difficult of moments, I was always very grateful. I was always very grateful that, look, I had food, um, I could still hope, you know, I could still leave, you know, a difficult space or a difficult place. Um, and I think a deeper aspect of that was when you have a deep core with regards to one's spirituality, a lot of things when measured against life, death, you know, the mountains, the rivers, how spectacular life in itself as an experience is, they become quite trivial. A lot of the fear, the intimidation, it's just not as trivial when you measure it against these higher things. Um, and then the last thing that I would say has been critical is memory. I think joy in childhood has sustained me uh as a leader in difficult times. Um every time I have been under pressure, that we beat unrest, intimidation, an abduction, whatever, and in instances where I would feel like the whole world was closing in on me, like if you just feel like someone had just ripped your heart out. I think at certain points it was really bad. Um the reminder that I was happy once. There was a time in Norton when I was a kid and I was playing in the mud after the rains, you know. Um, I think joy in itself uh is is something that I I now have as a daily practice to remember the things that make us joyful or that made us dreadful at a certain point. Uh, memory is a critical part of that. And I think those are some of the things that have really helped me as a person to, you know, overcome fear, to overcome intimidation, to overcome arrest, abductions, and even the threat of violence. Sometimes it's not like the violence actually happened, it's like it's being threatened. But I think when you measure it against those things, for me, it's it's not really been difficult to overcome it.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Thank you for that. That's powerful. And and just for for context for some of the people listening that may not know much about Zimbabwe and its history, but it's it's it's a place that um the people really suffer. It it's got unlimited natural resources, gold, diamonds, it's got very fertile soil, an educated populace, and yet it is continues to be poor. And it's it's it's 100% from my perspective, spent four years there with USAID. I'd love your thoughts on this, Namatai, but it's totally a governance issue. That people who stand up for rights, stand up for free speech, counter some of the government's policies publicly really can suffer. And I think that's the root of some of your run-ins with the government and law is standing up for basic rights, standing up for equality, standing up for opportunity, those types of things. And so that's why just for if you're listening and wondering why has she been arrested, it's not because she's breaking the law she's standing up for fundamental human rights, fundamental rights of that everybody in the world should enjoy. Would you concur?

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Absolutely. And I mean you are absolutely spot on in your uh views about Zimbabwe. I think we have a beautiful country with beautiful people. We have beautiful mountains we have the most amazing wildlife. I mean this country is just enriched with minerals and you know it's it's a beautiful beautiful country with beautiful people. However, you know all of these people ordinary people in the rural areas in the urban areas and the periurban areas often at times will spectate the beauty you know they would not experience it in so many respects because they are forced to survive. You know the amount of you know migration for instance like people just leaving the country um you know people would doctors yeah brain drain you know people for the UK they leave for the US they leave for South Africa, Botswana you name it, because um you know that particular flight is because of the you know economic uh situation the the the material conditions the questions around the material conditions of people that were never addressed for a very long time and definitely those are issues that are linked to a governance you know it's a governance issue um and again it brings me back to to to where we started off which was quite simplistic you know to talk about having people that wield a disproportionate amount of influence um with regards to people's lives you know can a pregnant woman go to a public health you know institution um and deliver her baby safely in standard facilities can in dignified circumstances and in standard facilities um ultimately that's a choice that's a choice that leaders make you know can people have good ablation facilities can they have um you know functional sewer systems ultimately that's a decision that leaders make so I think the insistence that um we're not a poor people actually we we live in one of the wealthiest in terms of natural resources it's a very wealthy country yeah but again it's really you know is there care and I will end on this point by saying that um often at times there are bureaucracies you know uh whether it's like at an institutional level or it's a state or whatever that becomes so big bloated and arrogant and insensitive to the human experience and I think it calls upon us who are on the recipient like we are the recipients well on the receiving end um of uh of uh of of these bureaucracies or these states to um you know to raise our voices and say you know this is not acceptable you know we are on the receiving end of the systems and the infrastructure that you have built and you know this is not good for us. So I think that also is you know a moral obligation and responsibility for us to always be reminding um the system um to not be as insensitive and to actually care about people.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Thank you. Our next topic is servant leadership now when you've talked a little bit about leadership and and some of the maybe worldwide epidemic of leaders being predominantly self-focused and self-enriching a flip side of that is something that we talk a lot about here with the Texas Tech system is servant leadership prioritizing the other over self and that being the the basis the impetus for leading is to serve others um so how do you see that with with we lead and with your work uh how how was what you do different from what you're you've talked about seeing around the world what does servant leadership look like for you interesting so at WheLead we uh have what we call the ISERV leadership model and this is basically what constitutes our values um and ISERV is an acronym um it's an acronym whereby the I is in small letters um and the rest of the words are in capital letters and there is um a meaning to that so the I which is in small letters has a triple meaning the first is imagination and innovation to solve complex problems um so that's the first meaning of the I and it's the insistence that as leaders uh we must be consistently uh um innovating and using our imagination to actually bring about you know solutions to the complexities um uh to the complexities that we are seeing in the world today um it is also the insistence that through innovation and through imagination no matter how complex a problem is it can be solved it can it can really be solved.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

The second meaning of the I is the insistence on the personalization of the values by the leader to say that I serve. I am the one who is to be of service. The final meaning in the context of the I is to make the insistence that the leader must always be humble and they must always be smaller than the institution and the work at hand and this is why the I is in small letters. The S stands for servant leadership the E is for empathy the R is for responsibility the V is for volunteerism and the final E is for expression. So these are the values that we hold as an institution but also the values that we impart in all the young people that we train that we have trained over the years. So yesterday we just finished a constitutionalism school in partnership with the University of Pretoria um and and and we basically were centering constitutionalism around the ISO leadership model. So I want to just go back um to um you know African cosmology some of our proverbs we have in African context and we call it which means the way we live and work with each other. We have to come to a realization that Africa as a society um us as Africans you know I I've I've done a lot of uh educational seminars and facilitation where I talk about um returning Ubuntu to our education you know we had our own cultural systems and in this cultural systems um you know it was absolutely and surely shameful to be self-serving so it was it was frowned upon to be an individual who seeks to serve themselves um I think the insistence was on a communal way of living uh it was on sharing it was this idea that we had to share um there wasn't you know you know um uh a glorification of of accumulation particularly primitive accumulation there was often a very communal outlook to how things were done and if you listen to the stories of um you know Nelson Mandela um a lot of the uh you know principles that we talk about service and what leaders should be like these were things that he learned from his um father who was chief and how they would sit around a fire and how they would speak with you know the other elders in the village who were also decision makers and how he was always the last person to speak. There is a lot of significance in why they would sit around in a circle um you know the circle was representative to say that there was no hierarchy. It was basically trying to create a sense of equality ensuring that everyone was seen and heard equally so if you look at how you know our education systems, our systems of governance were in the past, I think those things were always emphasized and stressed within the context of how cultures worked. And of course you can always pick a couple of things that you'd say oh this wasn't really working or this was patriarchal or misogynist or whatever. But I think the sense of we look down and we frown upon this idea of seeking to serve oneself is something that has always been central to our belief systems. I say this in reference comparing to what we see today because we look in the world today and people glorify the exact opposite so it's celebrated it's deemed a success. But how can you be said to be successful because you are you have accumulated a wealth that is much more than entire countries and yet there is extreme poverty in the world? Like how do you say that I am successful when you know you have a disproportionate amount of wealth in a society where others sleep hungry? How can you say that you have become successful when you can afford all the fine things that money can buy and yet the next person cannot get shelter the next person cannot get the basic dignity of you know good quality healthcare they cannot get an education. And also how can we look away and say that we do not care um this is you know coming from our core beliefs in this notion of Ubuntu I am because you are you know the insistence that whatever is happening to the other person fundamentally becomes my problem. And I think we are now seeing a radical shift in this and this is not a shift that is happening in our societies only it is also happening in the paradigm of the leaders we have. So it is not unusual and it is not surprising that the moment a person has a little bit of power, a little bit of influence, a little bit of authority, they need to use that to enrich themselves, to enrich their family and to not care about every anyone and everyone else. And I think that it is fundamentally rooted in our software and our fabric as a people the things that we idolize the things that we call um how do you say this role modeling you know the things that we we say this is this is the way to live one's life and also the insistence on the values that connect us in our humanness to say that I cannot be okay when the other person is not okay. I do perceive that by the time that we want to deal with these leaders and we have given them power be it in elected office or it's positional in an organization, etc, if we have not dealt with the software with regards to how they grew up and what they think and what is their consciousness, what is their paradigm, what is their worldview, they are simply going to replicate what they have as a software and they're going to magnify it using the institutional power, using the resources, the money that we have given them. So I do think that whenever we think about you know service, we need to think about botho ubuntu as we call it in Shona, which is my language. But I think fundamentally we need to start with children we need to start with the young we need to start with children and the young before we have given them a taste of power and privilege. And we also need to you know create an alternative narrative and an alternative reality with regards to the things that we celebrate as achievement or as success. To always make an emphasis that one must not be perceived as successful in society if their levels of primitive accumulation have manufactured misery and poverty elsewhere.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

That's good. And some of what you're talking about I think in in in our world here in the work that we do at Texas Tech would essentially be values. It's a big emphasis within the Texas Tech system to develop and implement a values based organization. Like it that people are clear what the values of the organization are, what the expectations are and that that guides who we hire, who we promote people that carry and demonstrate those those same values and one of these is is servant leadership. And so it's obviously a different context from from what you're describing but um you know it's some of the Ubuntu is is very distinct from the American you know independence and self-made person. There's some of that conflict but I think I I I I've always admired that mindset of the communal focus in some of the places in Africa that I lived in the sense that we thrive as a community over I thrive as an individual. And so I I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

I hear you yeah and I think also you you there there is an important point we need to reiterate quite strongly um and I think this is the important that uh when we talk about servant leadership right because you know we ask ourselves what makes a leader and I've always said that uh I mean leadership is about people so we are in the people business we are in it's about putting people first you know so I'm always telling everyone that um who who do you want to serve? Do you want to serve uh an institution? Do you want to serve systems or do you want to serve people? And I think that in a lot of different places where people have to play out leadership uh depending depending on where they are and whatever there is a a consistent contradiction and tension. I do sense that in the world today we've had this crisis of you know individuals who you know serve you know systems and institutions but not necessarily serve people. And I do perceive that no matter how strong the system of the institution is but if it is no longer working for the people it's probably time for us to rethink that system and that institution rather than defend it rather than protect it. Because ultimately those systems and institutions they exist for people. So you know a person is not leading um their HR policy they're not leading their finance policy they're not leading their their amazing programs they're leading people you're not leading your ministry of justice you're not leading you're leading people you're leading people who are ultimately affected um by whatever is an outcome of of of of the decisions that are made often in very private spaces but have you know their their their repercations in in often very brazen public but even very intimate and private ways too so the insistence that we must never depart from uh you know serving people and that this is about people is always quite central. And this is why feedback is important because often at times it is the nature of power it is the nature of systems it is the nature of bureaucracies it is the nature of institutions they will often become big they will often become arrogant and they'll often become insensitive but I think the real feedback is to go to the end user is to go to the people is to go to the recipients the people what are they saying? And when they say that the system or the institution it hurts okay like it's painful right it's no longer serving its purpose it's no longer doing as much good as it is supposed to then it is time for us to rethink those systems. And I think it takes a great amount of courage um which I think is is really central to everything because it makes us as leaders able to do anything and everything but it takes a great amount of courage to make that particular recognition and to say we need to have systems, we need to have institutions that actually work for the people and that actually serve the people.

unknown 39:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Yep that's fundamental and in the university context I hear that off all the time throughout the system here is it's about the student. You know everything we're doing is about the flourishing of the of the students that are part of the universities within the Texas tech system. But it is difficult like you've said you know uh universities are they're large bureaucracies and it become can be can feel impersonal but that grounding in what is the out the ultimate benefit or detriment to the student is a guiding principle for for the actions of the people that work here. So a question I'm gonna I'm gonna shift the topic to uh young leaders you mentioned that you're you're Gen Z I am not um what'd you say I said of course you're not so yeah I'm Gen X but no I appreciate Gen Z. So you work extensively with young leaders across Africa. What strengths do you see in young leaders Gen Z or similar that older generations often underestimate?

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Okay. Right so I mean the first thing that I want to um say is that um I was deliberate in in in in in emphasizing the fact that you are you are not young. So I mean I was deliberate in that respect because um you you you make the emphasis that I'm young and often at times what we are missing is a kind of intergenerational connection. I think before I answer your question uh with regards to like the strengths that older generations often underestimate I think we have to also start with the strengths that older generations bring that the young can underestimate. So I think we must always see this in the context of the evolving narrative of the human experience. And I think memory inheritance and heritage are very critical. In Latin they say memento which means to remember it means memory. And I think it's so so important for us to remember what was and I think to remember history and to remember the contributions that have been made. Because I think through that we are able to see where the elders or the ancestors or whoever came before us in their wisdom and in their limitations where they were able to build something worthwhile but also where the crags exist and what we can do differently and what we can do better. And I do perceive that without that kind of memory, without that kind of intergenerational connection, without opportunities to meet, to convene, to share stories, to share lessons, to share learnings, often at times the present moment is approaching the future with the tendency to replicate what was because we're not learning from our mistakes. So I think it's fundamentally important for us to make an insistence on a lot of the lessons we can learn from the past in terms of how systems were built in the in the context of the of the post-World War era, for instance, or um you know how you know post-colonial like independent African states how they they were started and what were some of the things that you know didn't go too well um etc. And I say this in particular because I look at opposition politics sometimes um in Africa and I think that a lot of them have a tendency to replicate because systemically you know structurally people not defaulting to memory what was put in the system that we might need to watch out for so that we do not repeat the same thing. I think moving on in the context of the strengths of the present um with regards to young people um I would mostly speak to uh you know brown, black African young people I think the stories are more relatable but I think over time in my travels especially as I've done uh lecture tours around Europe and met a lot of uh young people in Europe as well I also realize that there are certain similarities and nuances that exist with regards to experiences though it might not exactly like be the same in every way. One of my very basic observations is the idea that young people generally across the board in the world are coming Age in a world that you know requires and demands more of them in the context of entry requirements. So we have to give more, we have to be more educated, we have to be more skilled. We, you know, where my I always give this example, my mother with an ordinary level certificate. So that's what you get in our um uh Zimbabwean system when you're 16. Uh she could, you know, work in a bank, for instance. But now you'd have to have uh you know an undergrad and a master's degree, and you know, um, I've met PhD holders in Germany who are doing internships. And I was shocked, I was stricken, right? And in the past, uh parents with very little education, much less effort, right? They could buy 22, 23, you know, own properties, they could own homes, they could have a car, they could raise five kids. Um, I know people my age, both of them work, they have one kid and they still struggle to raise their one kid, um, because the system rewards significantly less. Um, so I would say that uh, you know, the strengths that exist, particularly with this generation, is that we have come of age in a time where the world is restructuring. And I think the restructuring that comes with it brings with it the opportunity to shape a new direction of for the world. Because I think there's a lot more agitation, there's a lot more unrest, and I think there's much more demand with regards to the things that we have seen the system has stopped delivering and how it has stopped working for our generation. So I think that's the first thing. The second thing that I I feel that I think is a strength with our generation is our insistence on awareness to uh our internal and emotional well-being. Um, people might seem that perceive that as a weakness, the idea that we are the first generation that has been more open about talking about our traumas and uh mental welfare and well-being. But I think that's particularly important because when I think about Zimbabwean history, I think part of what has created this mess is we had a lot of young people who went to the Bush War to fight for the independence of the country. And when we did get the independence, instead of taking those people to actually care for them because of all the horror and all the trauma that they had seen in the war, we gave them positions of leadership and power. And nobody has ever like stopped to actually think about what that means. So even if you see how they're not really phased that people are dying, I tell you, we've seen people die before in the war, you know. It's a generation of people that experienced such brutality and so much violence that at the time when you know they experienced what they experienced, they could not openly talk about it. Um, and I've had a lot of different stories about um uh psychosocial support for uh people who serve in militaries and were usually like young people who go to the front lines, and apparently in some places you cannot talk about it because then apparently you are under some seal, some oath to not like disclose or whatever you saw or whatever happened, or etc. And those people are never really rehabilitated, they're never really re-integrated into society, and worse off, you give them leadership positions and power, and you wonder why things pan out the way they are. So I think it's a superpower for us to talk openly about our traumas, about the things that hurt us, and to actively seek healing, to actively seek to address the trauma, to actively, you know, seek to address whatever fracture is. And I think that's not a weakness, and I think it's it's it's I think it's something that I see that is a superpower for our generation. I do perceive the technology, I do perceive that uh the ability to innovate in a digital world and in a digital space is making things so much more beautiful. Um, I think that we can solve many more complex problems in the world, um, which I think is quite critical. Um, and I think particularly also in an African context, when you look at the global majority in the global south, I think it's our numbers. I think it's our numbers. I think the fact that we have so many young people, um, no matter how aggressive or stubborn the systems of tyranny and oppression are, I do perceive that you know, the young would always, in their numbers, I think if they have the consciousness and the will and the courage to organize effectively and efficiently, they would always um create an alternative future, an alternative destiny, um, you know, not just for themselves and their families, but also for their country. Perhaps the last thing I would say that would be a strength and a superpower is imagination. Um a lot of the war we see in the world today, um, a lot of the uh bad leadership that has created these unbearable circumstances, especially for young people, um, a lot of that it is clearly you know the output of uh the imagination of certain individuals. And I do perceive that uh, you know, the world that we imagine, because I think because of like the pressures we have experienced as young people, and mind you, being Gen Z growing up in Zimbabwe, I've never really experienced a normal country. Um, like I don't have any recollections. I know my mom has recollections of like, oh, the newly independent Zimbabwe, you know, with the milkman, and like, you know, it's very nice, right? But I have no recollection whatsoever. So, what therefore becomes our hope? What drives an affinity for us to want different? And what does different look like? Right. And I think because we have been so deprived of systems that are functional, for our generation, we'll we will not depend on memory. We will probably have to depend on imagination. And I think that is something that is critical in the context of the world that we build. Of course, we can always learn of what has happened before us, but I think fundamentally because we have no nostalgia, we are not nostalgic about systems bygone like our parents are. Um, I think that also offers us an opportunity to build alternative systems that can completely dismantle what has not worked.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

Wow. That's great. That's insightful. Thank you. Insightful for me. So thank you for sharing that. I wanna I want to shift a little bit. We're we're we're nearing the end of our time together, uh, but I want to focus on some questions about personal growth. Who's been your greatest mentor?

unknown 50:33

That one thing.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

I I think I'm a byproduct of the village. I'm a child of the village. Um, so for me to pick one particular individual, I think in Africa we say takes a village to raise a child. Um, I think it would be quite difficult because I think at different moments and points in my life, I have depended on um sometimes even strangers um who have consistently provided guidance uh in ways that have been phenomenal and spectacular. Um of course I've had mentorship arrangements. I mean, when I when I got the Koffian next gen democracy prize, it came with a mentor, etc., which was beautiful. But I would say that um um I am a product, I am a child of the village, I am a product of uh my grade six teacher would often at times remind me because I I I I struggled with uh uh our local language. So she she would make extra effort because she said I was the head prefect. So she wanted to make sure that in that subject I did so well, and I did. Uh or um, you know, the women in my community when I used to play in the mud as a kid who would watch after us, you know. So if your parents were looking at, were looking for you right before sundown and say, Where's my child? You would ask the other mother, and the other mother was watching out for your child, so they would know where your child was. Um and also, you know, as I grew older, um, I've had people both in activist spaces but also in professional spaces. And some of them were in the USID system as well, who would, you know, make certain uh, you know, you know, recommendations or references that really helped to build me as a person. So, and also books. Um, I mean, I've read a lot of good books, so you you would have that also contributing to shaping the person that I have become. Um, I would maybe uh land with this. I think a lot of the qualities that uh have drawn me to these, I would call them mentors in one respect, because at certain points they created uh a community of generosity and sharing, the sharing of wisdom, of knowledge. And they were very generous, I would say. Um I would say that uh, you know, a lot of the instances, what is an impeccable quality in a lot of those people is grace. Um they were just gracious. I think no, I know, I don't just think it, I know it. Um a lot of the times when people see individuals that you know win accolades and that are refined, there is often this neglection of the reality that we are just people. Um, and often at times we are so terrible and so bad at certain things, like it's the craziest thing. No, it's not the craziest thing. I think it's it's quite normal that we would be terrible. We we're not good at everything. So um, and this people get to get the front row seat to witness where we're being where we're not so good at stuff, you know. And they have been so gracious, you know. And for me, I am essentially grateful because I am one young person who did not only get the activism and you know, the leadership and an NG or whatever, I did not just get that. Only it also came with a lot of visibility. So I also got that and the fame that comes with it. And I think there is often the assumption that uh when one is celebrated, right? This is this is where we we come back. I'm just a girl, right? We come back to where we started. I'm just a girl. When people are celebrated, uh, we make them larger than life. Um, and I think it often comes with a reduction to it. So we reduce a lot of qualities that make them people, ordinary people. And because I was so young, there would often be a deficit between my achievements and my capacity to hold those achievements and my capacity to sustain those achievements. So, you know, a lot of the times you're struggling at very basic things that, oh, someone would look at you and think, but a person of your stature should not struggle with this. I mean, you just got an award for so, and then you'd have like people that would just call you graciously, hey, we noticed that you didn't do so well and XYZ. Can we have a discussion, conversation uh about that and how can we make it better? And the grace, the grace to say, look, um, you're young, you will fail at so many things, you will make your mistakes. Uh, but this does not mean that we take away from um all the things that you have, you know, the capacity to be, and also the grace to uh, you know, allow me to um experiment, I think, to be wrong. Um I think it's it's been very, very wonderful uh to have that and not make a spectacle out of it. So I think it's that ability to hold our vulnerabilities, to hold uh the times when we have been naked and come there with something to cover us with and not say, oh, but because you're big in this one area, you're doing well in this one area, then uh ultimately we'll penalize you in a very hefty way because you didn't do well in that other area. So I think those have been like very great qualities that I've seen in a lot of those people that um uh have been uh my mentors, and a new chapter in my life has been the rude awakening, also, that uh a lot of the people that I were are where my mentors are also not perfect.

SPEAKER_02 56:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

Um, I've had a lot of uh grief, I would say, when you finally discover, oh, my mentor is not perfect, too, or like you know, rejection trauma, or like when it ends, or whatever, you know, and I change, they change, and that's okay. So it's been also an interesting amount of learning with regards to mentorship, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

Yeah, great, thank you. Well, my last question is how do you protect yourself from burnout when you're carrying so much emotionally demanding work?

SPEAKER_01 57:10

That's a hard one. And I would say that uh in all honesty, um I would not be uh an expert on this because I think often at times I failed quite dismally on this one. Um it's something that you know one struggles with. Um so I was on retreats uh when we when you reached out to have this uh podcast because I genuinely needed a break. And uh I would say that uh the first three weeks of my three, the first three weeks of my read uh retreat, I really, really struggled. Um, because for the first time in a long while, I wasn't busy, I didn't have like stuff to do, I don't have deadlines. And and the people who were hosting me for my retreat had been asking me consistently, uh, how do you rest? How do you rest? And ultimately I told them that I I don't know actually. So the thing about people who do so much and work so hard is there are certain things that we do not know how to do. And I make the admission that at a certain point I did not know how to rest. I did not know how to stop, I did not know how to slow down, I did not know how to say no. I also did not know how to celebrate. You know, there are times when there's like a good thing that has happened. I just won't take a moment and say, this is actually a good thing. This is, you know, let's celebrate, right? So I think the first thing that would be critical is the self-awareness, to just become aware that I'm not good at resting, I'm not good at uh stopping, I'm not good at celebrating, and I think that awareness is important. Um, the next thing that I have also learned is critical is to build infrastructure. Um, I think infrastructure is such an important thing to sustain our habits and to actually ensure that we do rest. Um, the third thing that I've now learned is to change one's thinking. I think often at times as leaders, we in so many instances impose ourselves where we are not needed. Um, I think busyness often at times is a myth. I was away for four months, our organization ran just fine. In fact, it was even better. So I come back and I'm like, okay, you know. So I think a lot of that I think emanates from a lot of like uh the politics. I think the politics that exists in our institutions, so we want to reinforce our presence and our relevance in this spaces so that we're not spit out. But I think a lot of that is deeply rooted in our ego. I think this idea that we believe that uh without us, things cannot move. I think there are leaders who genuinely believe that, which I find terribly sad. So they will build institutions that cannot outlive them, that cannot function when they're not dead. Uh the hard reality of this is even if you die, like I've now realized like life goes on. Even if you die today, the Zambezi River will still flow and the sun will still come out, and the mountains will still be beautiful. There will still be traffic along Samora after your death. It would just be life, just another day, just another Tuesday. So I've just come to this realization that um there's also that rude awakening, that consciousness that let's not overimpose ourselves and things can move without us. I think also other things that have allowed me to avoid um burning myself out uh has been depending on others. Um and I think it's it's a great amount of trust that is required for us to depend on others. I think there is so much uh help around us, and we can ask for it and we can receive it, and we don't have to carry everything alone. And I think that is a type of vulnerability that has saved my life because at a certain point I like to consider myself as a person with a killer work ethic. And I think my killer work ethic almost killed me at a certain point. So I would say that it's important to ask for help and to be vulnerable enough and to trust people and to know that um there is always help and there are people who are there for you. Um, and then maybe perhaps the last few things that I have learned with regards to avoiding burnout is to develop hobbies um outside of our work. You know, before civil society and activism, we were people, you know, we had things that we liked to do, you know, and I've often found that uh when you chip away the hardness, because over time you become harder. And I think the crust is often at times issued to protect ourselves. But when you chip away that hardness, you know, what what are those things that made us smile naturally, you know, before all this happened? Or what are things that were intriguing to us, or maybe it's things that we had not even experienced. Um, and I do think that when we find those things, I think there is need for us to allow space for those things and to put that as part of our infrastructure and our routine. But I think fundamentally to also investigate on the things that we might not be aware of that also bring life and vitality and joy and hope uh to our not just our bodies, but also our soul. Um, I do believe that those things are critical. I've seen them work for me, but I do understand that it's different uh for everyone. Um and I do sincerely hope that you know every leader um, you know, finds the things that work for them, finds the things that um help them um, you know, to uh you know, you know, to keep at it, but without actually destroying themselves in the process. Uh perhaps maybe just one last point. Um I've been too chatty on this one. Um it's just to say that um we deserve rest. And I think we need to let go of our understanding of why we deserve rest. I think a lot of the societies we come from have sold us this idea that we can only rest when we are tired, we can only rest when we have worked hard, we can only rest when we have given it our all. Um we can only like it's basically like saying you can only deserve rest, you know, when you have uh, you know, been holding a mountain and you've done all this exceptional stuff. No, I think that's a wrong way to look at it. I think we we don't have to, you know, break ourselves. We don't have to hold so much for us to then deserve rest. Um I think it's okay to change that kind of thinking um and to also know that we can exist in societies where we work, we have enough, and you know, the rest of our days we spend with love, with joy, with laughter, with family, with friends, and we make memories in the process.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:17

Wise words, thank you so much. Namatai, it's been a real joy to talk with you. Thank you so much for taking time. I've um said it at the beginning, but you're you're someone I've admired for a long time, and and uh you know, we loved my family and I loved our time in Zimbabwe, the people and the the country, and miss it um at the same time, like we've talked about. It's got some real fundamental challenges, and I'm thankful that you're continuing to stand up for for what you believe in, and and um I know there are gonna be listeners who just are are standing with you. And so uh thank you again for taking time to talk today.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

Fantastic. And thank you so much, Elaine, for remembering Zimbabwe um and inviting me in uh into this podcast series. Um I ultimately like I I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation we've had, and I sincerely hope that you know we will keep in touch. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for joining me in the LeaderFast Lane. Uh, if today's conversation sparked a moment of reflection or a lane change in how you think about leadership, take a minute to share this episode with someone you lead or learn from. Join me next time when I'll be joined by Dr. Rick Lang, president of the Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center, El Paso. You can find more episodes wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, keep leading with purpose, integrity, and clarity, especially when it's hard.